Members of the Turkish Cultural Club tried to deny on Tuesday that the massacre of 1.5 million Armenians near the start of the 20th century was a genocide.
Denying the existence of a genocide is a heinous act that degrades the experience of an entire people and is threatening to the prevention of future racism and genocides.
To an audience of Armenian students and the undergraduate student government, members of the Turkish Cultural Club defended the Turkish government, which has failed to recognize the genocide for the last century. The presentation and public comments were part of the group’s efforts to sway councilmembers to vote against a resolution next week that calls for the University of California to divest from the Republic of Turkey.
More than 40 U.S. states and 22 countries, and the United Nations SubCommission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide.
But citing “documents” and “scholars,” the students at the meeting said it was not a fact. Mark Bhaskar, a second-year political science and Middle Eastern studies student who presented, read a quote calling the genocide a “secondary matter.” Gülnaz Kiper, president of the Turkish Cultural Club and third-year psychology student, said there is “an open debate going on in Turkey” about the existence of the genocide.
These statements are a flagrant denial of historical facts. Genocide denial should not happen anywhere, and especially not at a university that is supposed to be one of the best in the world. The students who called facts into question Tuesday night demonstrated a lack of moral conscience.
At the meeting, Bhaskar said he thinks the resolution is “a racist attempt to drive a wedge between the Turkish and Armenian communities here at UCLA.”
The true wedge is the Turkish students’ attempts to minimize a genocide and stand on the side of a government that denies its existence.
The real divide comes from not listening to people who have lived through the truth and from standing in front of a group of peers and downplaying the murder of their people.
Though Kiper said she doesn’t think it matters if she calls it a genocide or not, it does. Words matter, whether they come from students or from official institutions that should know better.
Of course, students from the Turkish Cultural Club are allowed to speak whether they are refusing to acknowledge historical truths or not. But rational UCLA students, professors and administrators need to speak louder.
If this unworthy debate continues, UCLA officials and the UCLA community should make it known that they wholeheartedly support facts and condemn genocide denial. If the UCLA community does not speak up and criticize these acts when they continue, they are allowing for the profound disrespect of a people and their history.
This is not just a battle for Armenian students to fight.
Thank you Daily Bruin Board for taking a principled stand on this issue.
The U(N)SAC
I don’t usually agree with the DB Editorial Board, but I think you got it right this time. When it comes to justice, less is not more. The Armenian genocide is not a mythical story. It’s real, it happened, and those who perpetrated it and continue to excuse it must face it.
This bill also includes divesting from the Turkish Government. I wish the bill was only about recognizing the genocide, but it isn’t.
The resolution isn’t just about Genocide Recognition – It also includes divesting **65 million dollars worth of bonds ** from the Turkish government – a governing body that did not perpetrate the genocide although refuses to acknowledge it’s existence.
JEWISH HOLOCAUST IS A COURT-PROVEN FACT;
ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, A DISCREDITED POLITICAL CLAIM
I take issue with the deliberate misrepresentations, errors, and omissions in the anti-Turkish biased call-to-arms-of-sorts above. It does not conform to the higher learning standards of a university, violates the spirit and letter of freedom of expression, and stifles reasoned debate and scholarly exploration with purely partisan even fascist motives.
Holocaustis supported by a competent tribunal, Nuremberg; where is the Armenians’ Nuremberg? To call 1915 a genocide would be to equate much-discredited Armenian narrative to factual Jewish experience. It would be an insult to the silent memory of six million Jews who were killed just for being Jews. Whereas
Armenians resorted to terrorism (1862-1922, Nalbandian) revolts (1877-1920, McCarthy) and treason (1914-1922, Pope) and caused 518,000 Turks and other Muslims to meet their tragic ends at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. Jews did not commit any of those heinous acts in 1930s or 1940s. So how can any fair person treat the two events similarly? The UN, the US, the UK, Australia, Israel, Sweden and many other countries reject the use of the term genocide to describe the Turkish-Armenian conflict.
INTERNATIONAL LAW SAYS NO GENOCIDE
The landmark decision of the highest court in Europe, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) dated Dec 17, 2013 on Perincek vs Switzerland also supports this position. Convicting Switzerland for violating Turks’ rights to free speech and expression, ECHR verdict was based on solid facts and reasoning. ECHR correctly stated that “[t]he existence of a ‘genocide’, which was a precisely defined legal concept, was not easy to prove… (ECHR) doubted that there could be a general consensus… given that historical research was, by definition, open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths”. Thus, the ECHR created a legal precedent of inadmissibility of any comparison between the court-proven Jewish Holocaust and the discredited Armenian political claims, as the latter lacks what the former clearly has: concrete historical facts, clear legal basis, and existence of the “acts had been found by an international
court to be clearly established”.
Insisting on a non-existent genocide verdict, therefore, if not based on ignorance is defrauding the unsuspecting public.
HERE ARE THE ARMENIAN MURDERERS HIDDEN FROM PUBLIC
If one needs further proof of the fallacy of the Armenian Genocide, one can simply look at this photo at http://www.ethocide.com/ which refutes the entire Armenian narrative. Do these people in the photo look like “poor, starving, unarmed, helpless Armenians? Taken in 1906—nine years before 1915–it depicts
cadets in full uniform at an Armenian Military Academy in Bulgaria, arrogantly brandishing their Russian-made MOSIN rifles. The Armenian Revolutionary Federation used these weapons since 1893 in Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, and the Balkans, murdering Muslim, mostly Turkish, civilians—including my
grandparents and exterminating the Turkish population of the village of KIRLIKOVA (hence my last name.) My father, as a one-year-old baby, was the sole survivor under conditions still unknown.
LET THE HISTORICAL FACTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES
1914 : “……Armenian nationalist movement had blossomed since the turn of the (20th) century, armed and encouraged by the Russian, and several minor coups were repressed by the YOUNG TURK government before 1914. Denied the right to a national congress in October 1914, moderate Armenian politicians fled to BULGARIA, but extreme nationalists crossed the border to form a rebel division with
Russian equipment. It invaded in December an slaughtered an estimated 120,000 non-Armenians while the Turkish Army was preoccupied with mobilization and the Caucasian Front Offensive Toward Sarikamish…” [Source: The Macmillan Dictionary of The First World War, Stephen Pope & Elizabeth-Anne Wheal, Macmillan Reference Books, London, 1997, ISBN 0 333 68909 7 (and 2003, ISBN 0
85052 979-4,) page 34.]
1923 : “…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well- known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies….” [Source: Lamsa, George M., a missionary well known for his research on Christianity, The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia 1923, p 133 .]
The endless “War years” of 1912-1922 (seferberlik) brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left untouched, mine included. Those nameless, faceless, selfless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of
Armenian genocide. Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. They are racist because they imply only Armenian (or Christian) dead count, the Turkish (or Muslim) dead do not. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss “The Six T’s Of The Turkish-Armenian Conflict”:
“THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”:
1) Tumult : Numerous violent Armenian armed uprisings between 1862-1920.
2) Terrorism: Nalbandian puts the start of Armenian terrorism victimizing Ottoman-Muslims as 1862 which lasted until 1922 when Armenian volunteer gangs in Greek armies tortured, raped, and killed many Turkish civilians in Western Anatolia.
3) Treason: Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1922. Armenian volunteers traitorously carried uniforms of the invaders (Russia, France, Britain and Greece) and raped and pillaged Turkish villages exterminating their Turkish population. Still no remorse by Armenians to this date.
4) Territorial Demands: From 1877 to present, in regions where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, which if succeeded, would have been one of the first apartheids of the 20th Century, with a tiny Christian minority ruling over a massive Muslim majority.
5) Turkish Suffering And Losses : More than 3 million Muslims, mostly Turks, died during WWI; 1.1 million of them in Eastern Anatolia alone; and half a million of those at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. Compare that with less than 300,000 Armenian casualties (Gurun) which number is shamelessly magnified to 1.5 million over the years through sheer Armenian propaganda. (Bottom line: more Turks than Armenians perished; what kind of genocide is that? Answer: a bogus one.)
6) TERESET : Temporary resettlement order of May 31, 1915. Triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.
What the world needs is more honest research, reasoned debate, and civilized; not name-calling,
demonisation, polarization, and/or intimidation.
Ergun Kirlikovali you have been well documented and your true intentions have been revealed for some time now. Your unbalanced and aggressive demeanor toward the Armenian community, as well as your biased stance regarding the Armenian Genocide did damage your reputation as a legitimate debater, rather you are publicly known as a shameless Genocide denier. Due to your emotional instability and manipulative nature, I would urge you to refrain from any future arguments regarding this matter as no one in their right mind does take you seriously anymore. in fact, what you do need is some deep soul searching and intensive anger management courses.
For anyone interested in real Ergun Kirlikovali check out the links below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp1Q2pCl83M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHl_L-PoFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3hiVmmdTAc
Rewriting history won’t help the Islamic Turks and most folks in the US already think Turkey is behind the ISIS.. Well in 1915, the Turks did exactly what the ISIS is doing today! Ergun, I hope someone finds you in a dark alley some night, your an extremely evil human POS!!
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians? And everyone is a fool to be duped by such a crude Armenian deception? This example shows why Armenian liars can never be trusted.
As I stated before, is that best you can do you ignorant Islamic cPOS.. You think only Armenians want justice for Islamic ISIS Turkish like crimes!??? You would think your government would hire someone with a bit more intelligence to be a Turkish denial blogger?!
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians? And everyone is a fool to be duped by such a crude Armenian deception? This example shows why Armenian liars cannot be trusted.
Islamic Turks in Turkey celebrating their extermination of Christian Armenian.. http://armenianweekly.com/2015/02/23/celebrating-genocide/
I have seen you Mr. Ergun on hundreds of other posts denying the genocide and it’s until you start getting owned by other posters, that’s when you always go from this pretense nice guy to much name bashing, your a hypocrite liar sir! And just Google your name, you always come up as the number 1 genocide denial clown! well, along with your sidekick Maxime Gauin!
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians?
If you call it genocide, the law says you must produce a court verdict. Where is the court verdict that says that 1915 is genocide? Where is the Armenian Nuremberg? If you don’t produce it, then you are defrauding the unsuspecting public, making them believe that there is one. Armenian genocide is a fraud based on a dishonest and racist history, that is the official Armenian narrative. Suffering was real, but it was neither confined to Armenians, nor the Armenians were innocent bystanders in the Turkish-Armenian conflict as they claim. Turks are ready to prove these points effortlessly at the sole court designed by the U.N. for this purpose: International Court Of Justice. For a prelude: take a look at this: http://www.ethocide.com . Do these military cadets, in uniform, armed to the teeth, look like “poor, starving Armenians” to you?
Only in Turkey it’s not real you sick moron! The evidence is saturated around the world, with millions of documents regarding the brutal murdering of over 1,5 millions Christian Armenians and also a million plus Assyrians and Greeks that were butchered by your Islamic Turkey! One day your paycheck will dry up when the Armenians receive their reparations and the return of their stolen lands!
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians? And everyone is a fool to be duped by such a crude Armenian deception? This example shows why Armenian liars cannot be trusted.
Hiding behind a Jewish name,, is that the best you can do you Islamic Turk? You think only Armenians want justice for your families crimes.. are you really that ignorant?
I really would like to now. Are you ashmade of being an Armenian? Is that why you are hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? How do you think the Jews will feel when they find out that you are deceiving the world and that you are defaming and demonizing Turks under your-concocted-Jewish-name to create ill will among Jews and Turks? Just like Armenians always do–remember Andonia and his fake talat telegrams? and the fake “pyramid of skulls photo? Why do you feel you have to dupe the world? Why cannot you be open and honest like I am? You can see my name, my face, my arguments… all out in the open. Why are you people so underhanded, so scheming, so deceptive, so back-stabbing, so-ungrateful?
ARMENIAN LOSSES IS 642 THOUSAND INCLUDING EPIDEMICS ACCORDING TO GUENTER LEWY. HUNCHAK(1871) ,ARMENAKAN(1885) TASHNAKSUDYUN(1892) WERE ESTABLISHED TO MASSACRE MOSLEM OTTOMONS AND WERE BUSY KILLING FOR SOME DECADES DEFINITELY NOT LESS THAN ARMENIAN LOSSES. LASTLY THEY CAME BACK WITH RUSSIAN INVASION OF ANATOLIA IN 1916 AND CONVERT THE COUNTRY INTO BLOOD SHED EVEN WHILE RETREATING IN 1917-18. AFTER WAR ONLY WITH GREECE 2 MİLLİON CHRİSTIANS INCLUDING CHRISTIAN TURKS WERE EXCHANGED AGAINST 400,OOO MOSLEMS OF GREECE .( BERNARD LEWIS)
No, no law says that.
No law says that we must be quiet until a court says we can speak. I just don’t think you have the hang of thinking like an American yet. That’s not how we think in America, ask your non Turkish relatives. That;s how things are done in Turkey, land of the fearful.
Historians and the rest of us are free to reach judgments about Genocide as we please. Turkey is not bashful about calling any mistreatment of Turks or Sunnis a Genocide without court action. If your logic was correct, Turks also could not deny Genocide by the OE because it was never acquitted of it.
What the Convention says is that Genocide is a crime, and it provides a definition. Countless historians, Turks and others, agree that the OE committed Genocide under the Convention, the author of which, Lemkin, stated explicitly in a CBS interview, that the Armenian case was one of his two inspirations for drafting the Convention. He mused on the incongruity until the adoption of his Convention that a man who murders a man has committed a crime, but that a state which murders a nation has not committed a recognized crime.
In this he was not entirely correct. In May 1915, the Allies warned OE leaders that they would be tried for crimes against the Christians. Political expediency spared many until the Armenian Operation Nemesis caught up with them.
PS: Your cousins now live under full Islamic tyranny, and your ATAA is so craven and weak as never to speak up even for its Kemalist secular principles, which were worthwhile. ATAA = cowards, not men. And you were ATAA President. In 2007 you supported Kemalism. You never say that any more.
Dear Armenian Thug,
GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”
The endless “War years” of 1912-1922 (seferberlik) brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left untouched, mine included. Those nameless, faceless, selfless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.
Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. They are racist because they imply only Armenian (or Christian) dead count, the Turkish (or Muslim) dead do not. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”:
1) TUMULT : Numerous violent Armenian armed uprisings between 1862-1920.
2) TERRORISM: Nalbandian puts the start of Armenian terrorism victimizing Ottoman-Muslims as 1862. This first phase lasted until 1922 when Armenian volunteer gangs in Greek armies tortured, raped, and killed many Turkish civilians in Western Anatolia. The second phase is 1973 to current and mostly waged in North American and Europe assassinating innocent Turkish diplomats and their families. Armenians killed four Turkish diplomats on US soil: Santa Barbara (2), Los Angeles (1) and Boston (1). No one expressed remorse in the Armenian community for these cold-blooded murders.
3) TREASON: Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1922. Armenian volunteers traitorously carried uniforms of the invaders (Russia, France, Britain and Greece) and raped and pillaged Turkish villages exterminating their Turkish population. Still no remorse by Armenians to this date.
4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS: From 1877 to present, in regions where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, which if succeeded, would have been one of the first apartheids of the 20th Century, with a tiny Christian minority ruling over a massive Muslim majority.
5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES : More than 3 million Muslims, mostly Turks, died during WWI; 1.1 million of them in Eastern Anatolia alone; and half a million of those at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. Compare that with less than 300,000 Armenian casualties (Gurun) which number is shamelessly magnified to 1.5 million over the years through sheer Armenian propaganda. (Bottom line: more Turks than Armenians perished; what kind of genocide is that? Answer: a bogus one.)
6) TERESET : Temporary resettlement order of May 31, 1915. Triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.
What we need is more honest research and civilized dialogue; not name-calling and demonization.
Mr. Kirlikovali,
All I did was to place ifo you various and materially different statements you have made about the persecution of members of your family which are contradictory, so as to suss out why these persecutions as to your family members are matters you attribute to OE Armenians. So far, you have no facts.
To reprise:
You claimed that your father’s family in the village of Kirlikova was murdered by Armenians. You draw this conclusion so far only because you say that there was an Armenian Military Academy “nearby” Kirlikova in Bulgaria.
When I asked for the actual distance between the Academy and Kirlikova [which does not exist today], you are mute;
When asked for evidence that these Armenians did not hale from Bulgaria, Persia or Russian controlled areas in the Caucasus, you are again silent;
When asked why supposed persecution by military cadets in Kirlikova in 1909-1911 justifies the murder of OE Armenian citizens in 1915 and onwards, you are silent;
When asked why you believe Armenian cadets from the Academy did the persecution, you are silent.
You then backtrack and claim “your people” [meaning Islamized Greeks, it seems] were generally attacked throughout the Balkans by every possible permutation of ethnicities and Christian groups this side of Jimmy Swaggart. Did you know that some of the killing in these years was attributed to Moslem Albanians?
You have made a career of sorts out of claiming that there is no evidence to support the Armenian Genocide. Putting that nonsense to one side [see, for example Ottomanist Donald Quataert’s conclusions near the end of his career], it also seems you can cite no facts from which a reasonable person would conclude that Armenians persecuted or killed people in your father’s ancestral village.
As for your mother’s family, the case is even more tenuous. You stated in these pages that Armenians killed her or her family, but you provide no facts or arguments showing that this is likely. You have also given contradictory explanations as to whether her family was persecuted at all, or whether the persecution of which you complain was in Bursa, or Skopje, or someplace else. Here too, you have said that the persecution was by Armenians, and at other times, you have attributed it to other ethnicities..
Neither are the claims as to your family aided by your pasting of your “tereset” stuff.
You fancy yourself, with reason, as a scientist. Yet, you really have difficulty following how historians reason, and how they use evidence. You also persistently ignore Occam’s razor in coming up with bizarre accusations that Armenian cadets killed Islamized Greek or Bulgarian civilians of your family in the Balkans. No person denies that going back to the Greek War of Independence, Moslem villagers were killed, and some killed Christian villagers as well. These were terrible sins on both sides, and sympathy is warranted for all such victims.
But it is very dubious that Armenian cadets – students – went on a killing rampage against civilians when they were being trained to fight the OE Army, which they did with distinction. I know your military career was limited, but even you should know that Commanders do not risk expensively trained troops in needless persecutions of uninvolved civilians. Doing so exposes the troops to risks which purchase no strategic goal, it is risky, and it stiffens the opposition.
Finally, I caution you to avoid accusations of criminality in routine discourse. “Terrorism” is a defined state and federal crime. When you call a person that name, you may have committed defamation. I think you can make your points, such as they are, without exposing your assets to a judgment.
There is no doubt that Turks died in WW1. There is also no doubt that the Turkish OE leaders unleashed the catastrophe Turkey suffered by declaring war on Russia without need. Turkey could have stayed neutral. Blame your leaders, not your former enemies.
Mr. Kirlikovali:
According to a Turkish site, the ARF Military Academy in Bulgaria was located at Rila Monastery, about 125 km south of Sofia. The Monastery was 235 kms distant from Salonica, which you have said was nearby Kirlikova. So, we know that the Academy was nowhere near your ancestral village. 235 kms was a very great distance in 1911, and the path was hilly and at times mountainous.
You also have claimed 18 years ago that the Moslems killed in Kirlikova were killed by “Greek butchery” alone:
” Take it from me. Look at my last name: Kirlikovali. It means “a person from Kirlikova” in Turkish. Kirlikova is the name of a little village near Selanik, which was under Turkish rule prior to the bloody balkan wars and which is now under Greek rule. This village was populated by ethnik Turks, like thousands of other villages around at the time. Turks clearly constituted the majority of population there. And yet, all I know about my grandparents, whom I never met or even known to have existed, thanks to Greek butchery and wholescale massacres, is this: In the year 1912, trains full of “Turkish babies” with few babysitters were making what turned out to be their last scheduled runs to Istanbul, capital of the Ottoman Empire at the time. Among these tiny passengers was my father… A little hand-written note was pinned on his tiny shirt: Akif’s son Ratip. Born 1911. Kirlikova. ” This is all I know about my father’s side… All the moms and dads, of course, stayed behind to defend their country against blood thirsty Greek invaders who betrayed against their motherland.”
It is time you stop accusing Armenians of killing your family.
Please respond to my posts about the distance between the Academy and your supposed ancestral village of Kirlikova
Ergun, there is no law that states such and, btw, the Nuremberg trials never once mentioned the word genocide.
I see how it works, when Ergun Kirlikovi, a shameful genocide denier spews nonsense here there is no problem. However when a link is post to uncover his psychopathic behavior, the comment along with the link is immediately removed. Nice work admin, may I ask how much were you paid?
Agree, hopefully a nice Armenian, Assyrian or Greek will find him in a dark alley! 🙂
I see the infamous paid Turkish denialist troll is here, Ergun Kirlikovali.. This sick moron is on every posted Armenian article denying what brutality his grandparents did.. I guess going thru life being sick SOB history rewriter has it’s benefits, $$! Hey Ergun, here is a link showing your evil Islamic Turkish brotherhood celebrating the extermination of the Christian Armenians.. http://armenianweekly.com/2015/02/23/celebrating-genocide/
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians? And everyone is a fool to be duped by such a crude Armenian deception? This example shows why Armenian liars cannot be trusted.
lol, your quite good at copy and paste, huh?
Ergun Kirlikovali Avram Cohen•a few seconds ago
I really would like to now. Are you ashmade of being an Armenian? Is that why you are hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? How do you think the Jews will feel when they find out that you are deceiving the world and that you are defaming and demonizing Turks under your-concocted-Jewish-name to create ill will among Jews and Turks? Just like Armenians always do–remember Andonia and his fake talat telegrams? and the fake “pyramid of skulls photo? Why do you feel you have to dupe the world? Why cannot you be open and honest like I am? You can see my name, my face, my arguments… all out in the open. Why are you people so underhanded, so scheming, so deceptive, so back-stabbing, so-ungrateful?
Agree,, it’s funny how all the Armenians and other Christians just vanished from Turkey and if your caught defending the Christians your put in prison.. Turkish democracy?!
My mother and entire family was destroyed by Armenians. Now is that a reverse genocide then?
You Turks sound so stupid in your denial propaganda campaign.. The world knows the truth already of close to two million Christian Armenians butchered by your grandparents and also along with the over one million Assyrians and Greeks beheaded by your Islamic ISIS Turks!
Why are you hiding behind a concocted Jewish name? Are you ashamed of your Armenian heritage because of Armenian terrorism, revolts, and treason? Or are you trying to dupe the world into thinking that Jews support Armenians? And everyone is a fool to be duped by such a crude Armenian deception? This example shows why Armenian liars cannot be trusted.
But Ergun, you claim that your family came from Greece. How did Armenians kill your mom in Greece? Did they have to kill all the Greeks first? And, since you were not born in 1911, how was it that your mom was killed by anyone not a Turk?
There was an Armenian military academy and base nearby, established kn Bulgaria in 1906. see http://www.ethocide.com. Those Armenian murderers practiced their art of killing on my people.
In different periodicals you have claimed, I recall, that your family was murdered by Greeks in Greece in 1911. Story that your dad was placed on an eastbound train with a note pinned to his chest. Sad story.
Now you claim that they were killed by Armenian students from Bulgaria because there was an Armenian Military Academy “nearby.” How far, exactly, was the Academy from your home village, by the way?
Indulging your first claim, of an Academy, what is your evidence that even ethnically Armenian members of this Academy killed civilians generally or your family specifically, in Greece? Christian Greek civilians killed Muslim Greek civilians (and vice-versa) like your family from time to time [sorry Ergun, your family was probably Islamicized Greeks notwithstanding the name your parents gave you – I suggest you have your genetic ancestry decoded].
Second, while there were Armenians in a military academy in Bulgaria during the Bulgarian war, the vast majority were not former Ottoman citizens. Most came from Persia, the Caucasus, and Bulgaria, which has had a large Armenian population in Plovdiv and elsewhere since the Early Middle Ages. Your tireless rants about armed Armenians in this Bulgarian academy do not for a moment take from the point that in 1915, the OE decided to kill its Armenian civilian citizens in what is now Eastern Turkey and elsewhere in Asia Minor, many hundreds and thousands of miles away.
I disallow you from attributing the alleged massacre of your family to Armenian cadets, based on your supposed family tales, because you condemn exactly the same sort of oral history when Armenians recount the same evidence, albeit many millions of more times.
Finally, your family settled, as did many Pomaks and Islamized Greeks, in Izmir (Smyrna). Did your elders take over the vacant home and properties of Christians or Jews whom Ataturk forces killed there? Please supply the addresses so I can check it against the database of plundered Greek and Armenian properties there.
Let’s face it Ergun, you left Turkey to become American. Didn’t even marry a lady Turk. You demonstrate your Turkishness to your audience by screaming racist denunciations of Armenians, which really is a thing there. Other than that, you’re a California dude, elderly division.
You are not reading the information provided properly. In 1912, the Balkan Peninsula was a mess. The borders we now have did not yet exist. In the region where Kirlikova village was located, there were Christian irregulars, gangs, of Greeks, Bulgarians, and Armenians. There were also regular soldiers of these same groups. All of these attacked Turks, either by themselves or in joint strikes. Armenians had established a military Academy in 1906 in Bulgaria (9 years before the alleged genocide) and perfected their art of killing on my people, in joint strikes with Bulgarians. Given the proximity of the Armenian military Academy to Kirlikova, it is not surprising to know why Armenians have killed most if not all of Turks in and around Kirlikova village (i.e. Sari Shaban, Doxat, Kircali, and many other Turkish villages.) I hope this clears the ambiguity you have created in your own mind. Today, Kirlikova village is in Greece, but in the 1912 killing, Greeks, Bulgarians, and Armenians are all equally guilt.
Postmortem: Bulgaria and Greece started fighting each other after the Turks were killed and/or force to flee under gun. This is what happens to plunderers as each wants more and more. Consequently, Kirlikova village, once in Bulgarian soil, reverted back to Greek soil. If all this sounds too complicated, I would say “Welcome to the Balkans.
It is clearly established by records of Izmir fire chief (an Austrian) and British consular records that Izmir fires were started in the Armenian quarters first, then Greek quarters and finally engulfed the entire city. Armenians and Greeks did not want Turks to benefit from the resources of the prized city of Izmir after the Turkish victory. So, in a frame of mind colored by hate and vengeance that can only be described as if-it-aint-mine-it-shall-not-be-Turks’-either, Izmir Christians burned the city. Turks rebuilt it to its current grandeur, making beautiful Izmir, called “the pearl of the Aegean”, truly and entirely a Turkish city.
You keep changing your story. First you said in these pages:
“My mother and entire family was destroyed by Armenians.”
Now you switch the focus from your mother and [her] entire family to “my people” as being the victims of all Christian groups.
Here is a third version posted under your name on FB in which you say that “Balkan Christians” – not Armenians – killed your mother’s family.
“My mother’s family in Skopje, Macedonia, was luckier as ” only” 50 percent was slaughtered, by different Balkan Christians, Serbians and Montenegrins.”
You do not dispute that your family members and hence your people are islamized Greeks, not Turks, except by acculturation.
You now say that the killing in your father’s village was done by all Christian groups [“there were Christian irregulars, gangs, of Greeks, Bulgarians, and Armenians. There were also regular soldiers of these same groups. All of these attacked Turks, either by themselves or in joint strikes”]. This is a lot like saying you have no idea who killed members of your dad’s family.
You provide no evidence that Armenian cadets in Bulgaria killed anyone, let alone your family, your people [whoever that might be] or anyone else.
Weaker still is your claim that in order to destroy ethnic Armenian combatants in Bulgaria in 1911, the OE had to kill Armenian civilians a thousand miles east in Armenia in 1915-1923.
Go have a fish taco, and dream of being the king of the Pomaks in Pasadena.
You are not reading carefully or understand correctly. My mother was born in Bursa, Turkey. I was talking about my mother’s family, my grandmother, grandfather, and great aunts and uncles, to be exact. They were all killed by another set of Balkan Christians: serbians and Montenegrins.
I am at fault for reading what you wrote:
“My mother and entire family was destroyed by Armenians.”
Are you claiming that your mother was killed in Bursa by Armenians? If so, you would be about 100 years old at least.
You insist on not understanding. Are you suffering from a chronic case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome?
wow. Mr. Polymer has been sneaking into medipedia.
Dear Armenian Terrorist,
IT WAS A WARTIME TRAGEDY, NOT GENOCIDE
The alleged Armenian Genocide is a long discredited political claim, not a court proven fact. Such a claim cannot be substantiated with historical evidence. The trouble with the official Armenian narrative is that it ignores Turkish suffering at the hands of Armenian revolutionists and dismisses Armenian complicity, including but not limited to Armenian revolts, terrorism, treason, territorial demands, and more. It is based on selective sources employing a healthy dose of bias and Turcophobia.
Take the photo at http://www.ethocide.com, for example. How can you reconcile this photo with the alleged Armenian Genocide narrative? Impossible. This is a revealing photo of Armenian cadets in full uniform, arrogantly brandishing their Russian-made Mosin rifles at the Armenian Military Academy in Bulgaria, as far back as in 1906—i.e. 9 years before 1915. This single frame refutes the “poor, starving, armless, helpless Armenians” official narrative, proving that Armenians prepared for the attack on Turks systematically and over a long period of time.
If one cherishes values like objectivity, truth, and honesty, one must use the phrase “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking someone “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows little more than anti-Turkish bias. The question, in all fairness, should be re-phrased: “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”
Turks believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, and passive support from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, media, and others with anti-Turkish agendas, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire.
Most Armenians claim that the wartime TERESET (temporary resettlement of 1915) of the Armenians was genocide, exploiting universal suffering and base it mostly on hearsay, exaggerations, and forgeries, ignoring Armenian war crimes and hate crimes causing many casualties in the Muslim, mostly Turkish, community, all of which triggered the TERESET. Genocide is a legal term with a very specific definition requiring, not a political, but a LEGAL verdict by a competent tribunal proving intent, which the official Armenian narrative lacks. There is massive evidence to the contrary, though, clearly pointing to a civil war fought by Muslim and Christian irregulars and insurgents.
Yes, a Turkish City. But that is because your vaunted Army killed all the Christians. It was not a Turkish city before 1922 when the fires and bayonets were set.
If you read British Historian Arnold Toynbee’s book on Izmir, you will learn how brutal the Greek invaders were between 1919 and 1922, how the Turks were massacred by the Greek army, aided happily by irregulars of Greek and Armenian heritage. That is the reason why Turkish uprising was so fast, furious, and successful, and that is also why all Greeks and Armenians quickly boarded Greek ships and left the country as the Turkish liberation forces approached Izmir. Izmir Christians were fearing retaliation by Turks for the heinous pain and suffering Izmir Christians perpetrated on Turks.
More geographical impossibilities from EK:
You claim that “Kircali” is proximate to your father’s village of Kirlikova. Assuming this is accurate, we know that Kircali, aka Khandzhar, is 397.3 kms from Rila Monastery, where the Armenian cadets studied. That is a pretty big hike. The current roads require the traveler to head north to Sofia and then turn east and only then south.
You also claim, bafflingly, that Kirlikova is near Salonica. Maybe you are trying to create an identity with your (former?) hero Ataturk. Kircali is 321 km from Salonica.
You may impress Turks from Anatolia w this BS about the Balkans, but anyone with a computer and a memory can see that your story of persecution is anti-geographic and ever-changing.
You do your grandparents and your Balkan antecedents no honor by distorting what may have been the true facts of their persecution by Christians into your anti-Armenian template, into which you insist all facts eventually must fit.
Every time you post this BS, I will post the undisputed facts and your prior versions of who persecuted your family.
if you were born after 1911, and your mom was killed by Armenians in 1911, how can you have been born in the first place?
It is certainly possible that two states can commit genocide and counter-genocide. It is unlikely that non-state actors can do so. One doubts that ethnic Armenian military cadets, who likely did not run Bulgaria, had a chance to do so.
Wow Mark Bhaskar is a disgrace.
How very odd that ardent semi-Turk Mr. Kirlikovali (whose father’s family came from Islamized Greeks or Bulgarians) should claim that Armenia or its Diaspora practice terrorism by confronting an apologist for Ataturk .
Mr. Kirlikovali, a noted expert in plastic, seems not to understand that civil disobedience is not the same as terrorism. His meager analytic gifts should instead be trained on the Turkish government, which, since 2002, has actively helped all terrorists in its neighborhood, a subject the former Kemalist of Orange County, Kirlikovali Effendi, has never once discussed in his thousands of cut and paste posts.
There is very ample evidence from Turkish and other sources that Turkey has actively helped ISIS by resupplying it with weapons, not to mention treating injured terrorists in its hospitals and allowing them to transit south through her borders. http://www.express.co.uk/news/…
MIT is the Turkish security service. The Turkish newspaper Cumhurriyet was closed and its publisher imprisoned for telling Turkish readers (and the world) how Erdogan supplied weapons to terrorists: https://www.rt.com/news/323848
Terrorist group Hamas has operated from Turkey for many years with impunity. See Jerusalem Post article dated November 6, 2016 “Analysis: Hamas operating from Turkey as usual despite Ankara’s promises”
The German government concluded that Turkey is an active sponsor of terrorism:
“The leaked report states the German government’s belief that Ankara has been deliberately financing Islamist and terror organizations with the direct consent of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, according to the report aired by ARD on Tuesday.
The document written by the Interior Ministry was a confidential answer to a question posed by Die Linke (the Left Party) in the German parliament (Bundestag).
“The numerous affirmations of solidarity and support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, for Hamas and for armed Islamist opposition groups in Syria by the ruling AKP party and president Erdogan underscore their ideological affinity to their Muslim brothers,” the document states, according to ARD.
The Muslim Brotherhood produced the first Egyptian president elected in free democratic elections after the resignation of aged dictator Hosni Mubarak in 2011. But president Mohammed Morsi was overthrown by the Egyptian military in June 2013.
The Muslim Brotherhood are not considered a terror organization by the EU or the United States.
Hamas are an Islamist militant group which controls the Gaza Strip, a section of Palestinian territory which lies between Israel and Egypt. They are considered a terror organization by the EU and the United States.
Ankara has repeatedly denied it delivers weapons to Islamist militants in Syria. But it has a very different attitude to Hamas as that of western states, viewing the group as a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.
According to Spiegel this is the first time the German government has publicly accused Turkey of having links to Hamas and other Islamist militant groups.
The document also reportedly claims that Ankara has recently deepened its links with these groups.
“As a result of the step-by-step Islamization of its foreign and domestic policy since 2011, Turkey has become the central platform for action by Islamist groups in the Middle East,” the document states, according to ARD.
Relations between Germany and Turkey have soured markedly in recent months after the Bundestag ratified a proposal to recognize the massacres of Armenians by Turkish Ottoman troops in 1915-16 as genocide.
German authorities also recently barred Erdogan from talking via video link to supporters at a rally in Cologne where thousands took to the streets to support the Turkish president after a failed coup in July.
But it does not appear that the German government intended to use this classified document as a means of embarrassing Ankara.
The document stated that a public response to Die Linke’s question was not possible “for the welfare of the state.”
It is also not clear to what extent the response had been agreed with the Foreign Ministry.
Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has been cautious in his criticism of Turkey ever since the EU signed a refugee deal with Turkey in March, which has contributed to massively reducing the number of asylum seekers arriving in Germany since a high point at the end of last year.
Germany has the largest Turkish diaspora in the world with roughly three million people of Turkish heritage living in the Bundesrepublik.
Source: http://www.thelocal.de/2016081…
Hamas terrorists are trained in Turkey with government approval. ttp://honestreporting.com/idns…
Turkey harbored a Hamas terrorist until pressure from US forced him to leave. http://www.thetower.org/2730-t…
A ship loaded with weapons for HAMAS originated in Turkey, and was stopped by the IDF. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-…